Transcription

Georgia Tooke: Okay okay okay okay!!!!

Shae Myles: Yay!!!

GT: Yaaaaaay!!! Hi!!!

SM: Hi!!! It’s so lovely to meet you!

Rudra Manani: Oh it’s so nice to meet you too! I’m so excited!

GT: Okay, so! Um, hello everyone, I’m so happy we’re all here today, this is our second episode of In Conversation With, I’m Georgia, and this is my beautiful jiggly Shae from Jiggle n Juice. Our guest today is the wonderfully talented, and i am grateful to say, one of my friends, Rudra Manani is gonna chat with us today about her practice, her process, her research, and everything within that. So Rudra, do you wanna just tell us about yourself and your work before we jump into some questions?

RM: Yeah! I’ll do a lil brief intro! I went to UVIC, graduated with Georgia, had the pleasure of going to art school with her which was great! I do a little bit of everything, but primarily focus on painting and photography right now, mostly painting at the moment. Yup, I’m kinda interested as well, in the appropriation of Hinduism, it’s kinda this big theme that I’m working with, things like identity, voyeurism… that kind of vibe… we’ll dive into that more I’m sure! But yeah that’s pretty much me! 

SM: Amazing! My first question is, you obviously use different mediums, you mentioned photography and painting, so I was just wondering what it is that draws you to choosing different mediums and working in different ways, like what draws you to different mediums?

RM: Um, I would say, kinda just being in school and having that push to try new things was like a big influencing factor of that, like I just tried a little bit of everything. But, mostly because, like with my photography, I find I’m not a hyperrealistic painter, but I have these ideas that I want to convey in images I want to see. that I can’t paint myself, you know. So that’s kind of a big thing, but also, each medium has something so different to it. Like photography, is a way for me to express my images I’ve created in my head, and painting is something that I… that’s a whole other process that I figure out what I’m doing as I’m doing it, in some ways. Yeah, so there’s just so many different benefits to each medium, you know?

SM: Yeah totally!!

GT: Um, so, I was just wondering, by using all these different mediums, do they influence each other or overlap in anyway, like colour or composition or concept… or do you feel like they’re pretty separate from each other?

RM: Um, they definitely influence each other. In ways that I think I’m also just realising as well. I thought for the longest time that they were just separate, like this is my photography, this is my painting, but I think since I’ve started my recent series “Vibrant Chaos,” which is paintings based off photos I took when I was in India last December. Thats been a good combination, or has created a weird in between space of me having this relationship with both of them. Especially because I find “Vibrant Chaos” helps me explore my own identity in a way, because I’m working from memory, use my own body to create these large scale paintings obviously, and then in my photography, I’ve definitely started to use myself more in my work, so I wouldn’t say they’re self portraits, but maybe … ahhh maybe they are, idk. So, yeah, it definitely is an idea of me using myself in both mediums. Yeah, if that makes sense at all. 

SM: Yeah totally, like they kinda run parallel with one another, but then explore things in different ways, and allow you to understand and navigate what it is you’re tryna say? Because obviously, every medium is different, and they have their benefits, and the reason people choose them are just really interesting because it could speak to someone for a completely different reason, or like serve a different purpose, you know? So it’s just really interesting. I was also wondering… well, Georgia talks a lot about having an ~a-ha!~ moment, I love when you say that Georgia, like when artists have that moment in their practice when they’re kinda like ‘omg this is it… this is the pinnacle thing that I’m gonna do that separates me from the rest! So was there something that happened or something that clicked for you in your art school progress or in your career at all that you would describe as your ~a-ha!~ moment?  

RM: For sure, I feel like there’s been two moments that stand out in my head immediately, the first moment was in third year, and I feel like third year, maybe Georgia will agree, but the year that art school kinda got serious, where we were [setting] ourselves higher standards. I was at a point where I wanted to explore new concepts that meant something to me, but I was also very confused, that was when I was diving into the self-care industry a lil bit more. Which, in hindsight was something I very much needed to do at that time, but I feel like my brain was just this muddled mess, where I didn’t really know what I was exploring. I just knew there was something there that I was trying to grasp at, and so I was talking to Kelly Richardson, who we all know and love. She kinda just pieced everything together for me, she was like ‘yeah, it’s all connected, you’re interested in this idea of happiness, and this idea of the self-care industry, and the commercialisation of happiness,’ which was something I was interested in at the time. So that was a big ~a-ha~ moment, where i was like yeah I know what I’m doing! And then obviously that did morph into something else.

But my second moment, I would say, was kind of, I’m sure you guys will definitely be able to relate to this, when an idea just kind of like jolts you, which doesn’t happen that often, but it’s great when it does! That was for a video that I made ‘om - align your chakras’ and I was just sitting in my genders studies class, kinda zoned out, and I just had this idea of this video. It was such a simple concept, but was something I was so excited about immediately, I was like ‘this is so perfect, this is exactly what I’ve been feeling in my body, that I haven’t been able to express in a way?’ So that was a big ~a-ha~ moment I would say, I think that video was really important to my practice.

SM: Did you make that in 2018 or 19, and it was like the first piece that was exploring those themes? Like was it the launchpad for the other works that you did? Is that right? 

RM: Yeah for sure. Yeah I made that video in 2019, before my trip to India. That was the first video, because that after I was kinda moving away from ‘The Waste Series’ which was a series of bathtub photos that I took, that work exploring self-care industry vibes. But what I was really trying to get at, and what I’m actually interested in is the commercialisation and appropriation of Hinduism within that industry. So that video was really important in that sense. 

GT: Totally! I was wondering, I mean obviously everyone who’s watching needs to go and check out Rudra’s website and Instagram, which we will link, but would you just really quickly be able to describe what that video was for anyone who maybe hasn’t seen it?

RM: Yeah, so it’s like a really simple premise. It’s a white background, it’s two channels, Georgia is on one side, actually, and I’m on the other side. I’m dressed in a white traditional dress standing in the middle, and there’s just a bunch of people dressed in black walking around me, walking in front of me, kinda looking at me, but not really taking the time to stop and look at me, just quick glances. Then on the other side, Georgia is dressed in yoga attire, like leggings and a sports bra, and she’s doing the sun salutation, in a very slow, intentional, kind of mildly seductive way, and yep that’s pretty much the video. Oh and the sound is a distorted audio channel of someone chanting om, and its almost a lil bit ominous, I find, that makes you feel quite unsettled, I would hope, as the viewer watches it.

GT: Yeah, I found that work was so, like you say simple, but maybe, like visually, how you put it together, but there was so much there to unpack and to think about, and talk about! I feel like this was such an excellent springboard into so much research and discourse around your practice. The other work that comes to mind is ‘get your om on,’ which was another fantastic work that you did. And so, I was gonna ask you what drove you to make these works. You’ve already talked about how you got there, like what your process is, but how internally was like going on for you, that you were so compelled to make this, that you were like ‘i need to make this right now.’

RM: Um, I think the moment that it first really made me angry and upset, was when i was watching this VICE documentary, and it was this girl, idk she was in some sort of hippie festival in Brazil, but there were little shots of like the Ganesh statue, and people were like doing these dances and chants, but were all white, and there was no representation of anyone that would have belonged to that culture. It was just the way that the girl herself, her attitude was very like ‘this is weird but I’m gonna go along with it.’ It was just problematic is so many ways, and it made me so upset that I just started crying, I was just like this is so ridiculous. And so that was probably the first time I really felt that anger, I think. And then after that I just kinda noticed it in every formation of my life, like every aspect of it, especially, Georgia I’m sure you know, living in Victoria, it’s filled with little titbits of appropriation, just this vibe of island life, but that island life often includes yoga and om symbols of bracelets, and like ‘peace n love,’ and that kind of thing. There’s no negative connotations at all, but it just does feel strange as a person from that culture, to have lived in that city for five years, I think it’s been something that’s been on my mind for that long and I’ve only just started to digest it. But, I guess to answer your question, yes, once I realised that it was all around me, it was just all I could think about. 

SM: So you mentioned that it made you feel angry, would you say that was, not like a driving force, but was that anger what fuelled the work? Or was it more like trying to unpack it?

RM: I think with ‘om - align your chakras’ it was definitely anger that was fuelling the work. It was a lot of resentment, but my life was taking a really good trajectory at that point, because I made that video and then I went to India for the first time in ten years to visit my family, and that timing just couldn’t have been better. Because I went to India and I just realised a lot of people in India don’t really care about appropriation or anything like that because it’s obviously a different identity that they associate with, you know it’s different being an Indian person living in India vs an Indian person living in Victoria. You have different experiences, but I guess going to India really helped because it helped me get in touch with my own culture again, and also just calm me down a lil bit. Where I was just starting to see things like, not that i was being irrational before, but like being more open minded and more understanding, and coming at it from a more compassionate way, where I wasn’t just upset with anyone who did yoga or something. But it’s been a constant learning curve where I’m just kind changing my ideas or my thoughts around it. 

SM: Yeah, I think that’s the most interesting part for me to understand about your work, is kinda I guess your driving force behind it. Because the imagery you create is so powerful, and I think it’s really nice to hear you explain the journey you’ve been on creatively. So I also want to ask you, in respect to that, the kind of context of the research. When you first started making work about this, was there any struggles, or what were you faced with when you began to do the research and look into the issues more?

RM: Struggles as in like finding information, or kinda just like backlash?

SM: Like, anything I guess. Anything that you came across that negatively impacted your contextualisation.

RM: I think something that comes to mind is just like, trying to communicate my feelings and thoughts about the issue, because it was just so hard to explain what I was feeling without people expecting an answer, you know? As in, like I’m asking these questions about yoga specifically, and people are always like ‘well what do you want from this? what would be the ideal situation for you? what is the ideal solution? can white people not do yoga?’ Like that kind of thing when people just wouldn’t really get that is wasn’t about them, it was about how I was feeling around the topic. So it just lead to some uncomfortable situations, even with people I know, where they just would feel attacked in some way. That wasn’t my intention, my intention  was to bring…. idk maybe it was my intention. 

SM: I was gonna say, like that’s something that even if it wasn’t your intention, art is obviously all about evoking a reaction, and making somebody think like ‘oh wait, i’m a white person and i like yoga, what is this telling me, or how am i supposed to feel?’ Even that response, you’ve done your job as an artist, you’ve made somebody think about something. And I’m saying somebody, I mean me! I’ve never considered the practice of yoga as something that I should know the background of, or should take the time to understand the context of what I’m doing. So I think that’s what art is all about, and even if you did get backlash, like you said it’s your response. It’s not for anyone else, it’s not for anyone to be like ‘grrr this makes me feel like a bad white person.’ Like if you feel like that it’s fine, it’s doing its job as art to evoke a reaction. So yeah, I really love that, I love your answer to that. 

RM: Thank you! I love hearing that my work made an effect on you. That’s really surreal! But yeah totally, it is something that I do want to work with a more compassionate response. Just because I have felt that fire fuel me, but now I don’t want to like hate on anyone that does it, I think it’s just like bringing an awareness to this idea that like, you know, yoga has become so commercialised. It is something that you go anywhere.. like I was walking past the YMCA the other day and it was just like ‘yoga! pilates! bar! c’mon in!!!’ It’s just become something that’s so intertwined with fitness, and its just changed courses of like exactly where it came from, and no one really knows that. That’s all I’m trying to do, is like bring it back to a middle ground. 

GT: Yeah, just bringing an awareness to it and starting a dialogue. You’re not here to provide the answers. I know, having been in the class with you and being in the critiques with you and hearing everyone be like ‘ok so… now what? what do we do from here?’ And you’re like ‘idk!!! fuckin figure it out! that’s on you! Like, your response is your responsibility. I will not take any responsibility for your white ppl feelings.’ So I completely agree with Shae, that your art is so successful in starting a conversation, and for you to navigate these feelings. I also wanna talk to you about some of the other ideas that you explore in your work. So, going back to ‘get your om on,’ which was taken through a window, and windows are a very reoccurring motif in your practice, and I would love to hear you talk about why windows, and what do those mean for you?

RM: I just love windows! omg a good window is just…!! Well, aesthetically, obviously, just incredible. But windows for me, with ‘get your om on,’ it was also interesting because it was in my head for so long, the photo was taken in the house that I used to live in, but it was in the backyard and I remember I’d be walking home and you’d enter through the backyard and you could literally see like into our house. You could see what everyone was doing pretty much, and I though that was so fascinating. I also love Gregory Crewdson as I’m sure Georgia, and yeah it’s a great utilisation of windows. So I think that’s also a big influence for me, but yeah with ‘get your om on,’ I just kinda came from that idea of walking past my house every night when I was coming home, and the image just came to my head where I just wanted to have that concept of me looking outside, but also others being able to see me. It kinda turned into this weird voyeuristic idea of myself, where I  often feel like an outsider looking inwards… an outsider in the sense of being in Victoria and not being surrounded by other POC, and dealing with this concept and these feelings on my own. But yeah, I’m looking inside myself now.. so cheesy!! To like, figure that out, but it also goes both ways, where it’s like, going back to the critiques, where everyone was like ‘yeah so what do you want from this?’ It’s just a lot of… people looking at me, and that’s what it’s about. And me looking at myself. Idk I just feel like ‘get your om on’ is just an intricate way to express that, the voyeurism on someone looking at me as a POC, vs me looking at myself as a POC, and also as a person obviously. If that makes sense!!

SM: Yeah absolutely! Like that comes through in your work, you can tell that the windows are compositionally planned, and you know that’s a motif. But like, to hear you dissect that, I just really love that. And also just as a general theme that I love to look at, voyeurism just in general, whether it’s through film or photography or whatever, so I was wondering if you could elaborate a little bit more about the voyeurism and whether that relates to your exploration of Hinduism at all?

RM: Yes so what I’m trying to say is there’s so many different voyeuristic attitudes towards Hinduism, like going to yoga practice, going to the studio to meditate, like that kind of thing. I feel like it’s my way of seeing the culture from I guess what someone who doesn’t identify with the culture, how they would see it. For me, it’s become a part of growing up, I wouldn’t say I’m religious in that aspect, but it’s something that is a huge part of my life. So it’s just maybe another way to have a different perspective on it. 

SM: Yeah I feel like from a viewers point of view, voyeurism is obviously quite one-dimensional, whether it’s a Hitchcock shot where you’re just panning very slowly inwards to something, usually theres an element of… you don’t see everything in voyeurism. But you kind of see enough. It’s almost like ‘well if i practice yoga, and if i condition myself to be like, i understand this on a surface level and that’s good enough for me :)’ Then the parallel there, is that it’s not everything, you know, and there’s an element where it’s hidden, but also super exposed and commodified and commercialised. So that’s my interpretation of it, not that anybody asked, but i wonder if that’s true?

RM: You phrased that exactly how I wanted to phrase it, but I didn’t know how to phrase it. That’s such a good way to put it, yeah. 

SM: I just wanted to check if that was an intention!

RM: It is an intention now!

GT: I feel like this is what I miss most about being in the studio, is like saying ‘this is what I’m thinking!’ and then have people to bounce those ideas off of, so you’re like ‘oh ok! that makes sense!’ We’re all trying to connect the dots! 

I feel like I wanna start wrapping up, even though there’s so many things I wanna ask you! I was wondering how does your stance on the self-care industry and on yoga and everything… how has that changed since you started doing that work. 

RM: Yeah, I said earlier I was very angry and moved on from those feelings. And now I’m at a point where it’s just something that I’m so fascinated with now. I’m so intrigued, like I could literally research forever… I find myself finding websites of clothes that are appropriated, and marketed under ‘hippie clothing’ and that kind of thing. It’s just this weird world that exists, and I’m finding other people that also feel the same way. It’s definitely turned into something that I’ve accepted, and something I’m intrigued by now. And it really does drive my art practice in a way that I’m really happy with. So I’m glad that we’re having these conversations because I feel like it is slowly starting to build momentum in other ways too. Maybe that’s because I’ve started following other people on instagram that are researchers and stuff like that. So in my own world it is starting to feel better. 

SM: I really like that your outlook shifted. But I also feel like you’re allowed to be angry. Like I would never want an artist to have had some sort of response and then go ‘oh shit, my outward projection wasn’t received well so i need to shift the way i approach these subjects to something that’s more palatable.’ I think, not that you’re doing that, but definitely, I would hate for that to be the only reason. Obviously it’s tiring to be angry all the time, so I’m glad you are at a more explorational part of it, but the angry can still surface, and you should just be like ‘fuck you’ to anyone who questions it, or who tells you that you shouldn’t be angry. 

RM: For sure, I totally agree. It’s at a good point now that, I know I phrased it like oh I’m totally over the anger’, but it does drive me. It’s a good fire to have, like when you have another idea, which comes from feeling these intense feelings. So it’s a good way to get the work out, and make the work. 

SM: What are you working on just now? Just out of curiosity!

RM: I am working on this painting back here… I haven’t worked on it in like six months, or in a long time, so I haven’t really worked on it! So yeah, I had an idea for another version of ‘get your om on,’ which has been in my brain for a long time, so I’m really excited about that!

SM: That’s so exciting!!!

RM: Yeah it’s just covid is putting some hindrance to it, so once that gets better, I think I’m gonna make that photo for sure! And yeah, I kinda just finished up some smaller projects, some lil commissions, so now I’m just excited to work on that guy!

GT: Is there anything you wanted to say about how your practice has changed since the pandemic, or any thoughts you have on that? 

RM: Yeah, I feel like obviously the pandemic has effected everyone. For me it was kinda like a good effect, just because I was in Calgary with my family for most of the summer, I wasn’t really doing anything and I set up a studio in the garage so I was just painting all the time, it was so fun. But I think that was a significant shift in my practice, just because I was able to paint everyday, having just graduated and not having you, or any profs or friends around to bounce ideas off of. So it was definitely a weird shift, but I think it was really important because some of the work I made, I’m proud of the fact that I just pushed through on my own, because I didn’t have anyone else there, it was just kind of my own inner thoughts telling me what to do. So it definitely changed in that sense, obviously things like the state of the world does effect some things, so that did effect my work a lil bit. 

GT: Do you have any last words, any advice to tell people? 

RM: I would say, this is something that I need to work on, don’t second guess yourself. Like obviously second guess yourself, but you know, to an extent. There’s a fine line between trusting yourself and trusting your gut, and I think for me, I’ve often relied on other people being like ‘hey is this a good idea?’ Where I need that validation, but yeah! Just make the work, and it doesn’t have to be good, you don’t need to even know what it means until afterwards. 

SM: I love that! That should be every artists mantra. Like, fucking make work!!! 

RM: Just make it! Yeah!!!

GT: Just get it out there, get it out into the world!

RM: Yeah! 

GT: Thank you so much Rudra for joining us!!! We’re so so happy we got to chat with you, I feel we learned so much about you, and about your practice, and you’re just the most fantastic guest, so thank you so so so so much!

RM: Thank you so much for having me, I’m so happy that we could like… this is so helpful for me too, to chat about my own work and have people to talk about it with, it’s just so nice! 

SM: I’m so glad! Honestly, it’s been an absolute pleasure to have you and to learn a bit more about the workings of you!

RM: Well yeah, I love what you guys are doing, I think it’s amazing so thank you for having me!

SM: Thank you!!